SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Cited Authorities. I'm your host, Alexander Powell. My guest today is Sean Williams. Sean tried cases as a Prince George's County prosecutor before crossing to the defense table, where he is now a partner at the law office of Thomas E. Piles, where Sean handles criminal defense cases, personal injury cases across Maryland. Sean also sits on the District 15 Judicial Nominating Commission and coaches high school mock trial. Sean, welcome to cited authorities.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Thank you, Alex. Thanks for having me. Truly an honor. I know we we go way back, so thanks for bringing me on.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Sean, you spend years deciding whether to to charge an individual as a prosecutor. And now you defend them. You defend their constitutional rights. When did you first notice that perhaps you would be well suited for the other side of things when you were a prosecutor?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Being a prosecutor, it does give you some authority, some power as to okay, who am I going to charge? How am I going to charge them? But then that's it. You really, once you charge, once you prosecute, that's it. You have no nothing else. It's not a situation where you can reach out to the defendant and say, hey, Mr. or Mrs. Defendant, can I assist you in doing this? Can I assist you in doing that? It's that's it. And it's the next case that comes up, and you do the exact same thing, and the next case that comes up, you do the exact same thing. But as a defense attorney, you get a little bit more latitude, right? Not only are you helping individuals for the situation they're coming to you for, you can also attempt, right? Attempt to address the underlying issue, right? So if it's a situation where it's alcoholism, you can get them into a rehabilitation program and follow up and make sure that everything is going the way it's supposed to be. I try to take a proactive approach in my practice, which sounds ridiculous sometimes, right? Because I'm also a business person. I want to help individuals that walk through those doors, but not just help them with that singular case. Help them with, okay, what's the underlying issue? How do we address that underlying issue? So you're not coming to my door in a negative way, but more of, okay, I'm just coming to check in or just giving you an update as to how great my life is, right? So you just get a little bit more latitude as a defense attorney rather than as a prosecutor and helping people because these same set folks are my community. The folks that I see at the grocery store, right? The folks that I see at the gym. It's this is my community, right? So I'm not just gonna prosecute, I'm gonna try to help. So that's that was that was really the biggest mind frame shift for me was how can I really help these individuals rather than just okay, I'm just gonna prosecute and next case bring them bring them on up.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Your background includes the juvenile division. What did working with young people teach you about what the system can actually change?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Working with young folks is it is life-changing personally and professionally. And I'll and I'll give you two examples. I'll give you actually three examples. So when I was in juvenile court as a prosecutor, right? You're because juvenile court is for rehabilitative purposes. How can we help this child? You know, there's a saying that's easier to mend a child than to fix a broken man, right? So how can we help men mend this child make sure we rehabilitate that, make sure this doesn't occur again? And I don't fear much. There's a there's very few that scare me. Like it really. And uh maybe I'm just hardheaded, maybe I just don't care. I don't know. But I I vividly remember this one time. I'm a prosecutor, juvenile court. And this young man was brought in for status. It wasn't in the case that I was hearing. Um, it wasn't a case that belonged to me, it was just a status hearing, right? And it was in front of Judge Dawson. Back then, Judge Dawson was the juvenile court judge. And you know, they read the the judge asks this young man, hey, how's everything going? This, that, and the other. DJS, Department of Juvenile Services, gives their report as to, yeah, he's still doing his programs, this, that, and the other. And then Judge Dawson repeats the the young man's last name. And I was like, why is he repeating his name? And he he posed the question to the young man. He said, Wait a minute, um, your brother currently has a murder charge in circuit court, right? And the young man says, Yes. Now, the whole entire time, while, you know, because it's a status hearing. It's really, I really have no dog in that fight, right? It's between the young man and the judge, just trying to get an update as to what's going on. And DJS, we're just dick-ass furniture at this point, right? So I have my head down. I didn't really pay attention to the young man. And I'm right, and when Judge Dawson repeats the young man's name and said, Well, your brother is in circuit court right now for a murder case, I popped my head up because you know now I'm paying attention. And the young man says, Yes, right. And he said, Yeah, my father is also currently locked up for murder. And then I turn, I literally just turn my head to the right and finally pay attention to this young man. And I guess he he he sensed my presence turning to him. So he turns at the same time, turns his head to me. And at this point, we're looking at each other face to face. And I put it this way have you ever seen uh whether Jason or Mike Myers, right? Whether Friday the 13th or Halloween, you know how the mask, there's really no eyes, it's just darkness, right? That's what I saw in this young man. At that young of an age, there's nothing behind those eyes. And he just was very okay. Like, I'm waiting my turn. And it it that not necessarily, yeah, broke my heart in a sense, because this young man has accepted his fate, right? Like this is this is what's lined up. My brother is facing a murder, my father's currently incarcerated for a murder. This is what's coming. I I mean, my path is my path right now, and there was nothing behind those eyes. And it again, nothing scares me, but looking at a young man's eyes and just seeing that there was nothing there. Was it was just a blank. And that it to this day still gives me chills because I was like, I've never seen that before. And especially not in a child, right? We're not talking about an adult, we're talking about I don't know, he made it may have been 15, 16 when, but this was back in maybe 2015, 2014, maybe. But nonetheless, that so that experience really it impacted me because well, what are we really doing for these kids, right? In juvenile court, how how are these kids actually being impacted, right? Then when I transition over to defense or to private practice, I deal with still deal with juvenile cases that walk through the doors. And uh I make it a mindset to again follow up, make sure everything, these kids are doing what they're supposed to do. And I even have two stories as a defense attorney, uh, one good one, not so good one. I represented a kid maybe 2018, maybe 2019, and he he messed up, right? He messed up juvenile court. We kept his case in juvenile court. I get a report from the parents maybe a few months ago that this kid is in the military now. He's a firefighter. I mean, he's just doing everything that he's supposed to do. And I saw the greatness in him. I could tell that this was just an isolated, uh-oh, I messed up kind of situation. And those those cases, you know, I take pride in those cases because you some kids you just see this kid is he's gonna do great things. We're all kids. We were all kids at some point. We all messed up at some point, right? I always I as I told the young man when I was speaking with him, I said the difference between you and I is you got caught. I did. We all mess up, and it's you know, this shouldn't be the doom and gloom for you.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Sean, switching gears now. You argued a case that went all the way to the Maryland Supreme Court. Yeah. Where the the statutes seem to point in different directions. How do you build the strongest argument for a client when the law might be ambiguous?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

So it's an ego versus humility kind of battle, right? Because and I'll and I'll explain it this way: your ego wants to say, well, this is how it should be. And I'm going to write the greatest brief ever, right? To show the jud the justice, this is how it should be, right? But then there's that humility portion of things that says, well, hold up, wait a minute now. There are certain laws that are out there that may or may not touch this subject matter. Why don't you lean into that and speak from that perspective, right? So for me anyway, it was a balancing act, right? It was, I went into it once I appealed that case and I said, hey, it's gonna go all the way up. This is my time to shine. This is my time to let the world know that I am, you know, a great legal mind, right? And and I'm writing the brief, and I'm saying, and it should, and you should, and you this, and having these power words instructing the justices what to do. And then I had to stop and say, wait a minute, time out. These are individuals that this is their job. All they do all day, every day is read opinions, write opinions, and this is the and interpret the law and make new law, right? So why don't you tone it down a little bit? So for me anyway, it was a balancing act as to your ego, satisfying that ego of I'm a great legal mind versus the humility as to this is something new for me. How do I learn from this experience? I actually have a story. When I went to go argue my brief, right? I'm in front of the Supreme Court of Maryland. I go to Annapolis, I go argue my brief. This is my first time ever being, other than when we were getting sworn in, because we get sworn in at the same place, right? When we get our license, or when we get barred. But this is my first time making an argument. And opposing counsel, clearly, she this she was a seasoned veteran because she walked in, she knew where the break room was. I mean, every she knew everybody. So I'm just trying to do mimic what she's doing because I'm a rookie. I don't know what to do at this point. I don't know procedurally what about and I I could tell she could sense that. So she's kind of leading me, saying, okay, you know, arguments about to start. We wait in this room first. Um, you can hang your coat because it was raining outside. You can hang your uh raincoat here. That's where you can make yourself uh some tea, some coffee if you need it. Uh, what I normally do is I go sit and just listen to the arguments ahead. And so I'm following. I mean, it was very gracious of her because she could have just said, ah, whatever, you know, you're opposing counsel, forget you, right? And that that was the hum the the humbling aspect of things. Because in my brief, I wanted to write like I am the greatest legal mind, but in actuality, the practice of law is different as well, right? What you have to do in these environments are a little bit different, and she had to teach me. I was able or mindful enough to know I don't know what to do right now, right? I know how to type on my brief, I know what my arguments are, but procedurally, what do I do? How do I walk? Where do I go? Where am I allowed to go? Those kinds of things I did not know. And here's the kicker. I had gone up there a few, maybe a week or two before my argument to just take a look, but all I was able to do was just go into the hall and just all in the in the room to hear the arguments. I did not know what was going on behind closed doors, right? But that it was cool. It was it was really cool. I did not win my uh argument. I was actually the opinion was against my or the ruling was against my request, but it was still really cool. Um, being in front of the justices and just hearing their questions and not being tone-deaf because sometimes as lawyers we are just so stuck to our roadmap. This is what I want to argue. And just actually stepping back and listening to the questions and hearing, okay, they're trying to lead me to this, so audible and follow the lead and argue this and this, that. And it was really cool. It was a it was a great experience. I I would wholeheartedly say great experience.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Even for the Supreme Court of Maryland to take a case, it has to be worthy of granting cert, which is a lot in and of itself. Yeah. That that you had a case that was so noteworthy or novel, yeah, worth taking, that the Supreme Court of the state decided to hear it. And also, in that that government attorney for the AG's office, you know, he or she, they might have had, you said she she might have had four cases there that day. You know, she had one downstairs in the appellate court and then one upstairs in the Supreme Court.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

I mean, she was a C, but she she was just very pleasant. Um also a great legal mind. I mean, you could tell she lived for this. You know, there were indiv you know, there they are individuals you look at and you say, Oh, these are litigators. They love being in front of the uh jurors. You could tell she loved appellate work. I enjoy people, I enjoy individuals that have done this before me because I get to learn. I just she was great. Let's put it that way. She was great, it was a great experience.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

It's it's also interesting, too. I've heard this from another prosecutor that at one point in time they did a switch between the attorney general's office in Maryland and trial prosecutors and the state's attorney's office. You know, they switch roles for a week or a month or something like that here and there. And the appellate attorneys, you know, brilliant legal minds struggled with trial work because it's such a different skill.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

It's completely, completely different. It's dealing with people, right? Appellate work is dealing with lawyers, right? Not saying that we're not people, but it's dealing with audience, right? Different, different kinds of people. Different kind of people, right? Different kind of people. Trial work is dealing with just just people, day-to-day people with different experiences, different backgrounds, different goals, right? Different education, different mindset with appellate work, is for the most part, is they're lawyers, and it's just different levels of lawyers, right? Whether it's uh up-and-coming lawyer or a Supreme Court Justice lawyer, right? It's just different forms of lawyers. So that that's although it's I enjoyed it. I all I I like uh there's still a law student aspect in me where I enjoy reading case law and reading my my favorite appellate court judge. One of my favorite opinions I like, or writers I like is Judge Moylan, right? I like because he writes for the layman. And I don't know if that translates well, but he writes for the lay. It the way it's like having a conversation with your uncle when you read his opinion. It's like, oh, okay, I can see that. My uncle would say something like that, right? It's it's it's really neat. So I'm still that nerd in me that enjoys till this day, I'll go on the Maryland court's website and find recent opinions and just read up on it and just say, okay, well, I could see how that could be. Or I don't really necessarily agree with this. This and I'll it's it's me critiquing, right? And then I don't want to. It's me critiquing, well, no, it's it's it shouldn't have been written this way. I I personally probably would have done it this differently, this way, or saw it, I see it a little bit differently this way. It's it's cool. So there is a pellet portion of me that enjoys the briefs and writing my I write my own motions, I write my own briefs. I it's it's I enjoy that aspect of things. It's fun to me. It's that law school aspect of things that I get to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Right. I would I would say in terms of finding one's feet that they're both extremely difficult to be great at, appellate work and trial work. Correct. But perhaps trial work is harder at first. I don't know, maybe that could that could depend on the person too, but I'm speaking in in generalities. To hear the rest of this episode, subscribe at citedauthorities.substack.com