SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's great to be in a position to affect change and to have the support of a mayor and an administration that is gonna back that. It's been amazing.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

You interned in the Baltimore City Law Department as a high school student through a program called Law Links, which places Baltimore public school high school students in law firms and legal offices every summer. Today, you're the city solicitor, Baltimore City's chief legal counsel, the first woman and first openly gay person to hold that role in the city's nearly 300-year history. You're running the same department where you interned as a teenager. What do you recall from those days in the Law Lynx program?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Well, first, Alex, thank you so much for having me on here. It's it's it's a pleasure. Anything for you be along, and I'm I'm glad to talk about that. It's uh just been a full circle moment, right? As I knew I was interested in law, but there was a program, I went to City and in here in Baltimore, and it was part of an entire program. It was the second year, I believe, first or second year of Law Link's program, where they wanted to go into public schools and expose them to what it was actually like to be a lawyer, hoping to get more um people from more students from public schools interested in the field. And it's just been, you know, I don't know, eye-opening that the fact that I was the lowest ranking person at one point when I interned and to now leave that very office, it's it's it's absolutely amazing. It speaks to the assessment of the city and programs actually being intentional about helping public school students, African Americans, women get into this field and how impactful and how that intentionality pays off. So I'd love to be the spokesperson for that and why it's so important.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

You studied economics at Brown, and while you were there, you joined the Marine Corps Reserve and went on to graduate first in your class at officer candidate school. Tell me about that chapter of your life.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, I wanted to ensure that even though I was at an Ivy League school, that I was still well-rounded and I had this calling for service. And I didn't want to rest on the fact that I was going to be econ major and an Ivy League school and not fulfill that and not really what I felt like was maximize my purpose. I felt like there was a it was a stronger calling. And entering the service was just amazing to me. The the strategies that I've learned, I rely on them every single day. I first went to boot camp on the enlisted side, and then that next year I went to Officer Candidate School, and then also learning that by learning to follow helped me be a better leader. Right. So that first year I was I was following, I was enlisted, and then it helped me become a better officer in terms of the training and and um what it took to lead. And those are skills that I definitely rely on every single day. So it was it was really good. Great chapter.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

That's so interesting about the transition from being a necessarily a follower, but learning how to lead in that role. And of course, now you're in a in an immense leadership position. Can you talk more about what the Marine Corps taught you about leadership?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Absolutely. Well, it's caring about the team first. You're caring about your team and then ensuring they understand the mission, understanding the strengths, the weaknesses of your team, being able to support them and give them the resources that they need so that they can succeed and complete that mission. And seeing that all the way out, like you know, planning that and then being able to make adjustments. I think that was one of the one of the things I learned that's most impactful. Everything is not going to go how you write out or what you plan, even if you haven't planned perfectly. There are going to be setbacks. There are going to be things that you do not account for. And being able to make those adjustments and still be able to complete the mission. And I have to do that every day. I mean, walking into City Hall, I think I know what my schedule is. I have a pretty good grasp of what my schedule is. As it says it. And that may not actually be what I do for the day. I'll get to that, but I have some other things that are not on that schedule that may become more important based on what's happening and being able to navigate in a fast-paced and fast environment that's moving quickly and demands you to be at 100 all the time.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

So it's it was good training. After Brown, you went to work at UBS in New York, providing wealth management services for international clients. And that's a very specific world. Before 9-11, what was that life like for you in your 20s?

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Well, I was just so happy to be at one of the largest investment banks in the world, right? So that was a great opportunity. I was one of the only black women, one of the only black people there. And it it it meant something to represent. I meant to have a black representation on my floor. And I was the only one, like I had been in in a lot of uh my classes and things like that, but it was different on that level. And I was trying to soak up as much knowledge as I could. I learned a ton about international equities and fixed income and and certain things to help these high net worth clients. But I realized it wasn't actually what my calling was, right? And that's when I learned, really, that just because you're good at something, that doesn't mean that's what you were intended to do. Like that's not your purpose. And I was good at something, and it was safe, and it's a very beyond safe. And and in fact, leaving a lot of people question why I would leave when I was at such a prominent firm with such high potential. And I just wasn't, you know, it wasn't my purpose, but it was part of it. Absolutely. Well, it's caring about the team first. You're caring about your team and then ensuring they understand the mission, understanding the strengths, the weaknesses of your team, being able to support them and give them the resources that they need so that they can succeed and complete that mission. And seeing that all the way out, like you're planning that and then being able to make adjustments. I think that was one of the one of the things I've learned that's most impactful. Everything is not going to go how you write out or what you plan, even if you haven't planned perfectly. There are going to be setbacks. There are going to be things that you do not account for. And being able to make those adjustments and still be able to complete the mission. And I have to do that every day. I mean, walking into City Hall, I think I know what my schedule is. I have a pretty good grasp of what my schedule is as it says it. And that may not actually be what I do for the day. I'll get to that, but I have some other things that are not on that schedule that may become more important based on what's happening and being able to navigate in a fast pace and fast environment that's moving quickly and demands you to be at 100 all the time. So it's it was good training.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Of course, September 11th happened. You were working at UBS in Midtown. You've said that watching the attacks that morning, you realized that finance wasn't your passion. What was that shift for you?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yeah, it was, it was, it was very eye-opening for several reasons. But on the career level, you know, unfortunately, a lot of the people that were in those towers were, you know, drinking morning coffee and having their meetings and literally, I mean, just gone. I mean, just just gone. And for me, it resonated. Am I doing something that if something happened, right? Like that, am I doing something that, you know, this is really what I'm intended to do? Like it was, it was more purpose. And for me, it was, heaven forbid, if I had been at the alternate location closure downtown, right? Is this something that I would be willing to die for? Is is this is this is this something that I feel that passionate about? And I knew that that answer before that day was no. But that was what told me it it was time for change. And I never went back. I and they understood. Um, I called and I I said this, I I can't, I can't go back. And that's when I uh began in in real estate and then eventually lost. But that that let me know um life is really, really, really too short, and it's time to find a purpose.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

I'm sure you were not alone in that decision based on what happened that day as well. Absolutely not. Right, right. And you moved into real estate after that, and you've said that you did well, but something was still missing. What was missing for you?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Well, I had taken on a ton of loans, right? I'm I'm at Brown, so my parents definitely paid some, but a lot was on me. And so when I was good at something, as I was saying, it was because you're good at something, I was good at econ. And when recruiters came to to the campus, it was, oh my goodness, this is the most money I've I've I've ever seen in my life. Let me take this opportunity. But I knew law was what I was interested in. I pushed that away, and it was just like, let me just pay down some of this debt and and I'll get to it, right? And then I got into real estate and I'll and I really enjoyed it. I really, really, really enjoyed it. But there was something saying, you really love the law, and I I did well, but it was something missing. And so I went to law school in 2010, 2010, 2011, and graduated in 2013. And that as soon as I went first class, I knew that's what it was. I knew that's what I was missing. And the funny thing is, by going into law, I was able to combine all of my interests into my passion. I was I'm interested in econ, I'm interested in finance, I'm interested in real estate. And I'm able to combine them with what I am intended, what I believe I am intended to do in terms of providing service to my clients in in the area of law. And I'm able to do that every single day now.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

In your early 30s, you enrolled at our alma mater, the University of Baltimore School of Law, and you graduated Magna Cum Lade, you won the moot court competition, served on the law review board. As a fellow U-Bault Law grad, I know what that first year feels like. But coming in as a career changer with a brown economics degree and a series seven on your resume, what was that experience like for you at U Bault Law?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

It was totally immersive. It was just, I knew that this was not like anything I had done. And it was sort of like a submission where I'm saying, I'm submitting myself to all those things that I've done. That's in a that's in a different area, right? But I need to learn law. And I felt like I was behind because I'm coming out with, you know, students that knew from the beginning that they wanted to be lawyers and they did it, right? And so I felt I was away from the structure of school and how important studying is that first year, you know, it and so I just submitted myself and I fully immersed myself, and that's when I knew because it wasn't hard. It wasn't like a forced submission. It was it was really wow, this is amazing. This is what I've been missing. This is this is in everything I learned. I was thinking of different ways I could use it. And it it it just it just opened my mind up. So it it didn't become hard. And when something is like you work hard, but it's not hard for you to do, that's when I knew I was in the right spot.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

It's so important. It's a great signal of this is the place where I'm supposed to be. Ebony, you you spent more than eight years at Venable. You were on the Exxon Pepco merger team doing complex litigation, real estate litigation, regulatory approvals, and you were on the partner track, and by your own account, you were happy. What was that work like day to day?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Work life was work-life was amazing, and day to day, it was just Venable allowed the associates and council to go into different practice groups if your time allowed. It wasn't like you were section off, this is it. Um, or at least in a commercial litigation section, it was. So I could take on real estate matters if they needed me in the regulatory matters with the Exilon Pepco, if they needed me in bankruptcy, if they needed me in labor and employment, right? I was able to help out with that. And I didn't know that this was going to translate into such a big plus coming over to the city and running now these different practice groups that basically is a small firm. So going out of my comfort zone and not just staying in commercial litigation, but doing products, doing doing real estate, it exposed me to so many different areas of the law. So when the former chairperson, uh chairman uh Jim Shea, who's also a former solicitor, came over to the city, asked me to be his deputy. I was just like, I don't know if I could do that. I don't know anything about government, right? All I know is this world. And I was very happy and I turned down many headhunters that called throughout the years, and I would always say, I'm at the best firm in the best city. And, you know, but I loved it because I got to work on some of the biggest cases and with some of the most brilliant attorneys I've ever known. And just learning every day, saying I had no plans of leave at all.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

He became the city solicitor and he asked you to be his deputy. And you said that you were shocked. What was your first reaction and how long did it take you to say yes? Was it no time at all? Or tell me about that process.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

That was it was it was a very interesting time. He had just left and we gave him a retirement party, but it was during COVID, so we couldn't really have the party. So we had sent him off. So when he called me, I thought he was just really just saying goodbye, like, oh, I didn't get a chance to say goodbye. And we had worked on a lot of uh Johns Hopkins cases together, uh some of his cases together. And I knew he was fond of me. I but I know he had at that point three decades, over three decades of of experience. And literally, he knows every lawyer in this city. So for him to ask me that, it was sort of like out of all the people you could have asked, it was flattering, but it was just like, are you sure you got this right, Jim? But he he was very he was very sure about himself. And I had to sort of kind of borrow his confidence because I was not that confident, right? Um, but he was very confident. And he told me specifically, do not answer him the day that he called me. He said, Don't answer me. He said, just think about it. And he's a great negotiator, he's a lawyer, right? And so I think he knew what that was gonna do. And it made me think about every opportunity that I had in my professional career originated from what I learned in Baltimore. Baltimore City public schools, Baltimore City nonprofits that invested in me, Baltimore City teachers, my community. And how do I say no to a city that is literally giving me the opportunity to go with three different industries and succeed in all of them? Right. How do you do that? And it was, I mean, and then I said, I said, well, I got three kids in private school. I said, so I financially can't take at that point, it was over 65% cup. And I said, I I don't know if I can I said, can you give me a year? I feel like just prepare for it. And he said, I'll give you a year. And he did. And just saved, saved, saved. And um, I took that year, and Venable was very supportive, and they wished me well and let me go. And uh it's been life-changing. So very happy I made that move.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

You also served as the interim chief of staff in the mayor's office while you were the deputy solicitor. So you were overseeing legislative affairs, communications, constituent services, and still helping run the law department. That's essentially two full-time jobs. So, what did that teach you about how city government works?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Great, great, great question, Alex. That was a crazy, crazy time. It was, it was not sustainable, but I knew it was interim. Like, really, it was interim. Because at that time I had just gotten pretty much, it was I was there for about six months. I was still deputy. And the mayor asked me to be interim chief of staff. But at that time, like I said, I also had no money. So there was no no free time, right? I didn't have any free time anyway. I had no money. So, and I knew I had to learn government anyway. Why not take the same approach that I did in law school, right? Fully immerse myself into all areas of government because that was the one thing I was so insecure about. I was secure about the law, but I was very insecure about knowing how government worked. And all I knew was private firms. And I was very good at understanding how that worked because I had had the experience, but I had none. I knew the plan was for Jim to leave after that year. So I had basically a year before I was running this law department. So it was like, you know, sink or swim. And so I threw myself in, and this was when we were dealing with the squeegee initiative, and I had to set out a legal strategy for the squeegee initiative that touched on First Amendment rights, but at the same time, the balancing act of the public uh safety and getting that that balance together, but also dealing with a lot, a lot of outcry from people in the city that wanted it just handled, but being strategic about it and also doing it in a way that protected the city legally, but got the same result. So at the same time, we were dealing with that and then also dealing with the legislative side, council side, external side. And so it just it just taught me a lot. And it also helped me build some really good working relationships, not only internally but externally, but really helps me um as solicitor now. So I'm really grateful it was a tough, tough time, but it was so rewarding, and I'm glad I did it.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

When Jim Shea retired in January of 2023, the mayor named you as his successor. And and then it, you know, it came out that you were about a year short of the charter's 10-year bar requirement. Yeah. You ended up serving as acting solicitor for a year, and then they confirmed you unanimously the next year in January 24. Former U Balt Law Dean Ron Weich said at your confirmation that you remained acting only because the charter drafters couldn't imagine a young lawyer as brilliant, capable, and ready to lead as you.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I was I was so flattered that Dean Weiss said that. And and my goal was just to help the city, right? And you can put whatever title you want. My title has changed. I think my first three years here changed three times, four times. I've had so many titles. It doesn't matter what the title is, it's about helping the city and being in a place to lead the law department so that we can advance the interests of the city, really take the target off of our backs and start being aggressive on our affirmative litigation. Uh, we're really trying to build that up, really trying to advocate in terms of this past year, in terms of the rule of law, protecting the rule of law, and and striving to protect grants that were already appropriated that we feel were illegal executive orders, challenging those. And having challenging through lawsuits, challenging issues that not only affect Baltimoreans but people nationwide. It's just been it's hard to do it. I mean, it's it's hard in terms of um that you have to do it. Like there's some things that you took for granted, but it's great to be in a position to affect change and move change and to have the support of a mayor and an administration that is gonna back that. So it's been it's been amazing, you know, throughout all the titles. I've had a lot of title take.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

You completed the blockchain technologies program at MIT. Sloan in January of 2022. While you were still a venable, and your final project proposed using blockchain for real estate deed recordation. Most lawyers at major firms are not spending their evenings on MIT blockchain courses. I know. What pulled you into that?

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Oh, it's it's funny. My former practice group chief leader at Venable told us when we had downtime. He said, study this industry, blockchain, cryptocurrency. It's it's gonna be it's gonna be it. And this was in, oh my goodness, this was in like 2015. So he knew what he was talking about. And I listened to him and I would just, you know, read, read, read, read. And then I really got interested. I said, this is, you know, this could be a dis disruptive technology. This could provide some efficiencies, but I didn't really know how to use it in terms of how how could it, you know, different ways. I wanted to get ideas. I had some, but I wanted to get a course where people were really thinking about this full time, right? And learn from them. And that's what that MIT course did. And it got me thinking again about one of my interests, real estate, and one of the areas that the city has been dealing with for decades, right? Vacant housing. And when I was dealing with that, I felt like every time I would rehab a house, it was just another one, right? And it doesn't matter how much money I had, you know, I could never get to the next one. Or there's always another one, there's another one, there's another one. And it was so many. We had as high as 16,000 vacant properties. And the mayor declared vacant housing issue, not just a housing issue, but a public health issue. And he said, bring all of those ideas together. So that allowed me to utilize some of the strategies I learned at that MIT course in terms of putting it together in a practical, you know, because at that time I didn't know that I was gonna, I didn't even know that the mayor would look to the law department to come up with any type of solution. This was just what I thought it could be. And when I presented it, you know, there were some skeptics, but they they allowed me to pursue it. And then people are like, this kind of makes sense. Um, and so that's how we started. And now we have over 228,000 properties recorded on chain, which now most importantly allows us to open up the opportunities for tokenization or fractional ownership of those vacant properties to make it more affordable for people to participate in the redevelopment of their neighborhoods. The ones that have sat through decades of disinvestment, I feel like they should be able to participate in the redevelopment now that we're finally doing it in those disinvested neighborhoods.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

For listeners who hear blockchain and and understandably think they're automatically associated with cryptocurrency, how do you how do you explain what this actually is and how it works?

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Well, cryptocurrency is just a small fraction of what blockchain technology can do. That is just a piece of it. Of course, that's that's the one that you hear about a lot. But there are so many use cases for, for instance, in our use case, a property, a vacant property is usually transferred, the property transfers hands at least three times before it goes from vacant to active use again. Majority of the properties, a lot of people don't know, is that the majority of the properties that the vacant properties that we have are not owned by the city. They're third party. So we first created a separate docket, the in-rim docket, that would take those properties off of the foreclosure docket, right? That usually takes two to three years, that have they're not upside down, there's some interest or equity in involved, and put them on a fast track where it's four to six months. And with that in-rim docket, we get possession of the property, the city does. And once the city gets possession of the property, of course, we don't keep it. We're selling it to an investor. An investor is rehabbing it and selling it either to an end user or a landlord that's gonna, that's going to rent it out. So that's three times the property's changing hands relatively in about six months to two years. So why are we doing a title search that goes back 50 years every time? That does not make sense. So if we could put, we could record the deed and make it immutable, meaning that there are no changes on a blockchain. You can't go back, you can only add, you can't delete. So it's it's decentralized. It's not a central authority where someone can be compromised or compromise the data. So it has these protections that government says that they want transparency and immutability, right? Where people can see. And these are the things that we're saying are important to government, and they are. So why not use them? So if we record it one time, now we can just look forward instead of looking backwards. So when you're trying to save time and get through at that time 16,000 properties, now we have 12, less than 12,000 vacant properties, you don't want to waste time on something like that. But now it also builds, you have the infrastructure now, now that it's on chain, now you can do fractional ownership. That's where you start getting into um some of the real power of the technology. But you it can be used in the medical arena where if let's say you're out of town and you're allergic to something, people may not know. But if they run it, if it's on chain, they'll know, hey, do not give this person that medicine, right? It's on-chain. The quality of food, where it's being sourced, you get to know, you can record that. It's on-chain. If you have an outbreak for something, you can locate where it is. IDs. What why do you, if you're trying to get into just an event that says you have to be 18 or older, why are you giving someone an ID that has your address and all this other information on it? It should just be, it could be recorded. Just say, hey, this ID, it's green, right? You can you can go, you can, you can get in. So it's a whole bunch of different ways. I know it's just cryptocurrency, but that's just scratching the surface of the power of this technology and the more that you learn about it, especially in combination with AI, but that's a whole nother thing. It it can it can really transform how governments are run.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

And Ebony, just a couple more questions here. You've mentioned that you had a pre-existing medical condition that should have qualified you for IVF insurance coverage. The insurer denied it because you hadn't tried to conceive naturally with a male partner. You have three daughters now, all through IVF. You've said that the things that motivate you are seeing the real life implications of the laws that you want to be passed. How much of your legal philosophy comes from moments like that where you were wrongfully denied insurance coverage in a situation like that?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

That that's a great question. And thank you for bringing that up. Um, it's something I reflect on daily, right? When when you see systems that can take a bad situation and make them worse, right? Discovering that you have a fertility issue is already devastating. And then saying, but if you were straight or if you were married, we would take the financial burden. And they say, no, the financial burden is yours because only because you have not tried the straight way. And and and it's it, it's it, those are the things that really, really, really motivate me. And then you have to because it puts a person that's in that situation. Do I choose to get stressed and fight? Which my natural inclination is to do as an attorney is to fight that, right? In that particular moment. It was, it would be to fight. That's my natural, but do I preserve what I have because I'm trying to do something bigger and bring children into this world? And so do I write that check, suck it up, and focus on the mind space that I need to get through a very difficult, which ended up being an eight-year process to get my kids here, but also have that financial. And if I didn't work at Venable, I wouldn't be able to do it. And I re and I remember that, right? Is that there are a lot of people that don't work in a job like that where they can just write a six-figure check and just say, however long it takes, I'm gonna do it, right? They could fold and forego out on which I think is the three biggest blessings in my life with my children. And they would have to forego that because they don't adhere to someone's standard. Because, you know, no one is asking for a print, right? In terms of, do you think it's right? I just want you to give me my rights, right? I just want you to give me what I paid for. If I pay into it, I couldn't care less what you think. I just want the the same benefits to be applied that I paid, you know. We could have a public debate. Should you have Ivy? I couldn't care less, right? But that's but that's what really pushes me. And after I had my kids, of course, I was able to volunteer with Free State Justice and really delve into that and provide pro bono service on on that level to really help people that couldn't do that. But those are things that stay in the back of my mind. So thank you for uh bringing that up because that's definitely something that motivates me.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

My girlfriend Julie and I have been dating for about two years, and she started her egg freezing treatment last night. So it's very timely. It's been a process, as I'm sure you can imagine. Yeah, it's it's been a journey.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

It's got science is amazing, and you will get through it. It's tough, but you'll get through it.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Appreciate that. I'll let Julie know you said that too. Absolutely. Ebony, as we finish up, you've studied economics of Brown, you've served in the Marines, you worked in wealth management at UBS, you built a real estate career, went to law school in your early 30s, spent eight years at Venable, and now you're the Baltimore City solicitor. For ambitious people who might worry that their path is too unconventional, what do you want them to hear?

SPEAKER_01 32:23

I wonder they hear what my friend told me when I was at her uh graduation at Harvard Masters of Fine Arts. I said to her, I said, Oh my goodness I was I was 30 at the time. And I said, if I if I go to law school now, I'm gonna be 33 when I graduate. And she said to me, and I tell you, this was it. I went and took the LSAP right after this, she said, God willing, in three years, you're gonna be 33 anyway. But if you go to law school, you'll have your and that was just so the time is gonna pass. Time is gonna pass. It's what you're gonna do with it. So if you feel that this is I I've I've dedicated so much time to this, I'm uh this is what I'm, you know, this is safe. Why would I upward? If you feel that that's what it is, there are night programs for that, right? Like right now, because of technology, there are online programs for pretty much anything you want to do. I mean, whether it's it's you know, taking an MIT class or a blockchain or really studying up in terms of going into a new career path, something else with technology or law, or it doesn't matter. But if that's what you want to do and you really feel it, and you feel like something just is not there, that's that's that's your calling, and you should follow it. It doesn't matter how unconventional. I'm on my third try.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Hopefully, it'll stick. Right, right, exactly. And the time is going to pass anyway. Might as well make the most of it. Ebony, thank you for your time today. It's been a pleasure speaking with you.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Thank you, Alex.